Mick White
Paul Samson’s Empire (1986-1987) and Samson
(1987-1989)
Hello Mick. Thank you
for being here on Samsonworld. What are your current music or life projects?
Give us the details.
Firstly it’s my pleasure, I’m delighted to talk
about my time with Paul and I’m really pleased there has been such a renewed
interest in Samson as I feel sometimes people forget how brilliant and
influential Paul really was.
I’m still singing regularly with a couple of
bands mainly doing classic rock covers which is a lot of fun, I’m also writing
some solo material which I’m planning to record next year along with some of my
favourite songs I’ve written down the years. I have also been in the
hospitality industry now for nearly 20 years and have my own business called
‘Micksology’ based around cocktails. I regularly do masterclasses as well as a
lot of private work and it’s something that I have the same passion for as I do
singing so I’m very much still performing.
What’s your background
as singer? When and where are your born and what’s your “civilian” name anyway?
I was born on 25/09/1967 and my full name is
Michael James White.
I’ve been singing since I can remember, starting
in school productions and choirs then progressing into local bands from the age
of 13 or 14.
The band that got it really started for me was
‘Emerson’ from Newcastle upon Tyne who I joined when I was 17. The band had a
publishing deal with Warner/Chapell Music and were gigging quite regularly in
London which is where Paul and the guys from Empire first saw me at The
Marquee.
You joined Paul
Samson’s Empire in October 1986. How did you originally meet Paul? Were you a
Samson fan at the time?
I actually joined in the Summer of ‘86, I think
July or August. As I said before I’d been playing some shows with Emerson at
The Marquee and Paul and the guys had seen me and got in contact with me to ask
me to audition for Empire. Paul called me up and sent me the songs to learn and
a week of rehearsals was arranged at Terminal Studios in South London. The
first time I actually met Paul and the rest of Empire was at the first
rehearsal which was pretty daunting for an 18 year old kid.
I was a big fan of the previous singers to be
honest, Bruce Dickinson was a big hero of mine and Nicky Moore was one of the
best vocalists I’d seen live. Having said that there was a number of songs that
I loved like Vice versa, Riding with the angels and especially Losing my grip so I was very aware of
how good the band and songs were.
So basically, how
different was Paul Samson’s Empire from Samson in terms of style, attitude and
vision? Was Empire supposed to be a totally different band or “Samson in
disguise”?
I think with Empire Paul was trying to make it
more of a separate project away from the Samson name. The line-up was awesome
with Dave “Bucket” Colwell, Kevin Riddles and Mark Brabbs you had guys that had
been in great bands before and Bucket and Paul wrote some brilliant songs like Fighting man, Turn on the lights and One
day heroes. There was also a fantastic song called Tomorrow which Paul co-wrote with Nicky Moore and of course Can’t live without your love that should
have been a massive hit single. Although Bucket played a little bit of
keyboards it was mainly a two guitar band and with the rhythm section being as
powerful as it was it made for one hell of a band.
Do you like the songs
of Joint Forces? What are your faves?
I think Joint Forces is a brilliant album,
probably my favourite of all Paul’s work with some of his best guitar work. It has
some incredible songs like Burning
emotion, Tramp, The russians are coming and my personal
favourite No turning back. We did Tramp with Empire on the Iron Maiden
tour and it was most definitely a killer song live and went down a storm every
night.
Touring with Iron
Maiden in 1986. Such a blast. Talk about the resonance and the big success of
this tour.
It’s hard to overestimate how amazing the Iron
Maiden tour was to be honest. I was an 18 year old kid who had just moved to
London and joined this amazing band and then I was being told we were going to
be touring with arguably the biggest rock band in the world.
From a personal point of view there were so
many highlights and funny stories. The crowds were tremendous, I got to play
two nights at Newcastle City Hall where I’d grown up watching my favourite
bands, I got to watch Iron Maiden every night who were incredible and I got to
play all those great songs with Paul, Bucket, Kev and Brabbsy every night which
was the icing on the cake.
From the band point of view it was a high
profile tour that helped to bring us to a lot of people’s attention, we had a
great reaction from the press and to be honest were probably let down a lot by
our management who should have been able to go get us a decent record deal off
the back of the tour.
That being said it was the most incredible time
and the memories will stay with me forever.
What about the gigs at
the Hammersmith Odeon (now Apollo)? 6 nights! Tremendous.
They were unbelievable, to do one night at this
legendary venue would have been enough but we got to do six nights and play to
some amazing crowds.
The highlight was the final show which was
actually in the afternoon and was a benefit gig for the NSPCC. Bad News who
were the spoof band put together by Rik Mayall and Ade Edmondson from the Young
Ones TV show were also on the bill and we got to share a dressing room with
them.
To top it off Brian May (who had just produced
the Bad News album) and Jimmy Page got up during their set and so we got to
hang out with them as well as having pictures taken for the official photos of
the event.
My very favourite moment of the Hammersmith
shows was as we were all getting ready to go on stage with Iron Maiden for the
sing along in Heaven can wait, I was
stood with Brian May teaching him the ‘woawo’ part before we went on. You can’t
buy memories like that.
Did the two bands (Paul
Samson’s Empire and Iron Maiden) get along with each other? What about Bruce
Dickinson? Was there camaraderie between him and Paul? Any funny anecdote about
the interaction between the bands?
There was so much history between the Iron
Maiden guys and the rest of the guys in Empire so everyone seemed to get on
really well. Bucket had co-written a song called Reach out with Adrian Smith which Maiden did as a b-side to Wasted years and they had been in bands
together before so were very close. Kev and Brabbsy were in Angel Witch and
Tank respectively so they’d been around the whole NWOBHM scene along with
Maiden and Samson. Paul and Bruce was the most obvious connection from the past
but I don’t remember them hanging out too much throughout the tour in fact I
think they kept a healthy distance from each other. I obviously didn’t know
anyone and was in awe of the whole situation, Steve Harris was brilliant with
me giving me loads of encouragement and really helped me to relax and enjoy the
tour as was Nicko McBrain who is hilarious. I remember when we were in
Newcastle Nicko wanted a haircut and I knew a good hairdresser up there so
arranged for her to go to his hotel to cut his hair. Before the show Steve and
Nicko burst into the Empire dressing room pretending that the girl had done a
terrible job on the haircut and blaming me for it. “How am I supposed to go out
on stage looking like this?” Nicko said to me and just for a second I thought
he was serious. As I said earlier Bruce was a massive hero of mine so I was
hoping to get to know him a little which unfortunately didn’t really happen,
apart from pleasantries we didn’t talk much. I think I was probably too shy to
strike up a conversation so it wasn’t until about half way through the tour
when both bands had gone out for a few drinks at the Newcastle Mayfair (it was
my 19th birthday) we had our first real conversation. He gave me some singing
advice and we talked a little bit about Earth
mother which we were doing in the Empire set.
One night I think it was in Edinburgh all the
Empire boys got dressed up in a fake nose and glasses and stripped down to just
underwear and went onstage during Iron Maidens set. Paul had a broom and was
pretending to sweep up the stage while everyone else did a crazy dance at the
back of the stage. It went down a storm and during the final show of the tour
at Hammersmith Odeon the Maiden boys got us back by rushing the stage during
our set and covering us all in custard pies. It must have been hilarious
watching me try to finish the set pouring my heart out singing with a custard
pie hanging off my head.
Also during the tour I remember many times one or
more of the Maiden guys having to hide in our tour bus after soundcheck so they
could sneak out of the gig without being noticed and would be hiding under the
seats in our bus.
One night that always sticks in my head was in
Sheffield back at the hotel after the gig. Some of the guys from Def Leppard
and Saxon were there as well, Steve Harris, Adrian Smith and Paul and the
Empire guys. Everyone was talking about the NWOBHM days when they were all just
starting out and telling all these brilliant stories. I was sitting there open
mouthed soaking up all this historic gold and having to pinch myself I was
actually there when Steve Harris turned around and looked at me and said “How
old were you when all this was going on?” I awkwardly told him I was about 12 or
13 to which he jokingly stood up and pretended to send me to my room.
I’ve got to say as well the Iron Maiden crew
were absolutely amazing, they looked after us so well and gave us so much help
with everything. We had a great sound every night and always got soundchecks
and as much room onstage as they could give us. It was a privilege to watch the
Iron Maiden machine working it’s magic day in day out and I feel very blessed
to have been part of it even for just a very short time.
Why did Empire disband
anyway? Did you get along with the members?
I think there was a lot frustration within the
band that a deal wasn’t sorted after the Iron Maiden tour and this definitely
created some tension. Paul had been complaining throughout the tour that the
other guys were partying too much and I think was already starting to make
plans to put something else together under the Samson name. Throughout the tour
I always shared a room with Paul and we did most of the press together so by
the end of the tour we had a close bond and also by that time we had
established a strong song writing partnership. There was definitely some friction
between the band and I remember sometimes it got a little heated, with me being
so young I sometimes didn’t react very well which probably made things worse. Things
came to a head early in ’87 when Paul felt he was becoming (in his words) “a
side man in his own band” so the band split and I was happy to stay with him
and see where that took us.
Looking back now it seems to me that it’s a
shame that line up split up so soon, I was very young and naïve and had a lot
to learn and although there were some frustrating times I look back on Empire
with great affection. I still see some of the guys, in fact I recently got
married and Kev was there and got up and did a couple of songs with me and the
band.
I also do a couple of shows a year with a band
called ‘Lend Us A Quid’ doing classic rock covers and Bucket and Kev are very
much a big part of that.
So when did the new Samson
with you as lead singer officially start? It should be on May/June 1987, right?
Yeah it’s was roughly around that time, we’d
tried out a few things with different people including some ex-members of
Samson before finalizing the line-up. First recruit was my old buddy Charlie Mack
who was the drummer in Emerson, he’s a brilliant drummer very much in the style
of Steve Smith from Journey and brought a really different feel to the songs
and was perfect for the direction we wanted to go. I think that the songs Paul
and I were writing leant more towards bringing in a keyboard player so we
approached ex Airrace keyboard player Toby Sadler who was a big mate of mine
and Charlie’s. Toby’s a great musician and backing singer and was a real asset
to the band. Last but not least was Dave Boyce a fantastic bass player with a
big personality who I think was recommended to Paul by the owner of Terminal
Studios where we rehearsed and had been in a band called ‘Ore’ previously. It
was a really great band and after the disappointment of Empire folding so soon
it felt fresh again and I was really excited to see where we could take it.
Talk about the tour in
Yugoslavia. What about the ‘Rock Spectacular’ gig? 66.000 people. Pretty
impressive, out of this world.
Another amazing memory and as things turned out
a real insight into the troubles the country was experiencing and what was about
to happen. The gig itself was at The Red Star Stadium in Belgrade and I think
we were there for about three days. I remember doing a radio interview on the
national radio station and being in the studio and thinking it was like going
back in time, all the equipment looked like it was from the 1950’s. The people
were amazing and we were really looked after and the crowd at the stadium was
unbelievable. The best memory was walking down the tunnel towards the pitch and
onto the stage with the intro tape booming into the stadium, it was a real hair
rising on the back of your neck moment. The gig itself was brilliant, the band
and crowd were really up for it and we played a blinder that night.
What about the songs
of ‘and there it is...’ and 1988? Are you pleased with the way they were
produced and recorded? Do you like the 1988 album (issued in 1993)?
I think there are some great songs especially Too late and The silver screen, the latter being my favourite song I wrote with
Paul and a song I’m extremely proud of but to be honest I don’t think the
production of the songs really did justice to the band. Listening back to the
original album I think they sound a little thin and that was definitely not how
that band sounded live. Fortunately the sound of 1988 has been beefed up a lot for the reissue which came out
recently and sounds a million times better, there’s also some great sleeve
notes done by Malcolm Dome so I’m really pleased that it’s had a new lease of
life.
The five songs from the ‘and there it is…’ EP are fairly cohesive and along with Don’t tell me it’s over and Who do you think you’re foolin’ were all
recorded during the same sessions.
Paul kept everything that he recorded and was
brilliant at remastering material.
If I’d had any input to 1988 I would have suggested putting the two tracks that came out on
the ‘Burning Emotion’ compilation Don’t
close your eyes and Fight for your
life. They were a lot heavier and certainly as far as I’m concerned where I
wanted the sound of the band to go. Toby had started to contribute to the
writing at that point and Paul was a lot more in his comfort zone with the
heavier sound. Charlie’s drumming on Don’t
close your eyes is outstanding, Paul’s guitar solo is breathtaking and I
also think it’s one of my best vocals from this period.
Your singing was
great. It sounded very AOR, yes, but it also retained some “raw” quality as
well. I really like your performance on Too late, for example. How did you
approach the singing on the tracks, technically speaking? Were you following a
pattern?
Thank you, that’s really nice to hear. My
favourite singer has always been Steve Perry from Journey so I was massively
influenced by the AOR sound but I also loved Michael Hutchence from INXS who
was really edgy and put his lyrics across brilliantly. I’d also grown up idolizing
singers like Ronnie James Dio, David Coverdale and Paul Rodgers and around the
time I joined Samson you had Bon Jovi, Def Leppard and Bryan Adams making
fantastic records so I had some amazing inspiration.
I always had the rough edge to my voice which
was great live but back then with analogue recording my voice tended to get
compressed too much when I was in the studio so I’ve always felt that I never
got the true sound of my voice down on tape. In terms of approach I always
tried to get as much down in a good take as possible, that way you keep the
natural feel of the vocal track and then just drop in the odd line that you
want to replace. Some songs were always easier than others though and
occasionally you could get bogged down with a vocal trying to get the perfect
take. A lot of singing in the studio for me was about getting the right sound
in the cans, making it feel as live and spontaneous as possible. Also having
the right person in the control room is essential and Paul was always great at
making me laugh and keeping me relaxed.
After the release of
the mini-album, Samson toured UK and Europe. Where? How many dates? What do you
remember about it?
We did a fair number of gigs in the UK
including some great shows at the Marquee at that time but European dates were
a little scarce to be honest, although we had a great trip to France which was
very memorable. We started off in Paris where we did a lot of press and a great
photo shoot then went down to Grenoble to headline a festival which was a lot
of fun. The new material was going down really well and we had Riding with the angels, Vice versa and Losing my grip sitting nicely in amongst it too. I’ve been
listening to a few live recordings from that time lately and it was a superb
band that I think is massively underrated in the Samson history books. As I
said before I think that maybe the recordings of that period don’t capture the
power and intensity that we had.
One great personal memory from this time was a
very special guest who joined us onstage at The Marquee. Growing up I was a
huge fan of Twisted Sister and when they split up Dee Snider put a band
together with Bernie Tormé and Clive Burr called Desperado. They were rehearsing
in the same studio as Samson and we obviously ended up hanging out with the
guys. They all came down to our Marquee show and Dee got up and did the encore
with us which I think was Rock and Roll
by Led Zeppelin, it was a dream come true for me getting to share a stage with
Dee.
We also had Don Airey do some shows with us
that Toby was unable to do including another great show at The Marquee and Paul
Quinn from Saxon got up with us a couple of times again at The Marquee.
And so in November
1988, works for the new Samson album Ignition
started. But you didn’t deliver any vocals in studio. It seems to me there was
a rift between you and the rest of the guys (except Paul). Why? What did it
happen? Did this ruin your relationship with Paul?
I think this is a period of the band that has
been reported in a very one sided way to be honest. I’ve read a lot of things
saying I was sacked and that I didn’t deliver any vocals and lots of other
nonsense so I’d like to give my side of things.
Firstly I did deliver vocals for a new album,
two of which are available on the ‘Burning Emotion’ compilation album called Don’t close your eyes and Fight for your life. There was a further
two songs called Can’t stop running to
you and She keeps looking for love
which were recorded at the same time. All four of these songs had the lyrics
and melodies changed for the Refugee album
which also contained Too late, Don’t tell me it’s over and The silver screen which I co-wrote plus Good to see you, Turn on the lights and Can’t
live without your love which I had been singing since Empire and all which
I had recorded vocals for many times.
If I’m honest the last six months of Samson
were very difficult, I’d been in the band for two years and we still didn’t
have a major record deal. Paul had taught me an awful lot and I was a lot more
confident as I approached my 21st birthday but I was starting to become
disillusioned with the band and where it was going. Added to that I was still
quite a bit younger than the rest of the guys and bands like Guns N’ Roses and
Skid Row were starting to take over the world with this edgy, stripped back,
aggressive sound and I wanted some of that. I definitely started to party and
indulge in the rock’n’roll lifestyle a bit too much and I know I got a little
out of control sometimes which I think came out of my frustration. I’d also
been approached by a number of other bands to join them but in my heart I think
I’d decided that I wanted to start my own band. I’d been writing a lot of songs
on my own and also with an old school mate Gavin Taylor (who went on to be in
Mammoth) that were in a totally different direction to Samson and from around
October/November 1988 I’d pretty much made my mind up I was going to leave the
band. By this time I’d become quite distanced from the guys in the band and me
and Dave especially weren’t getting along, me and Paul talked a lot about the
situation and I guess he had a decision to make. I remember him saying to me
one night that he wasn’t sure if the guys in the band were working and that he
was thinking about approaching Clive Burr, Don Airey and Chris Aylmer to
replace them but I’m not sure if he was serious or if it was one of Paul’s wind-ups.
The last gig I did with Samson was just before
Christmas at The Royal Standard in Walthamstow. By this time I’d decided to use
all the new material I’d been writing to form a new band with Gav Taylor and my
mate Billy Kulke who had just left Jagged Edge. Samson were planning to have a
break over Christmas and regroup in the New Year so I decided to tell Paul
after Christmas so as not to ruin the holidays. I headed up to Newcastle for
the holidays and while I was there I had a call from Paul telling me he was
splitting the band up which to be honest was a total relief as I wasn’t looking
forward to telling him I was leaving the band.
It was sometime in January when I found out
that Samson had “miraculously” reformed with another singer and yeah I was a
little upset not because I still wanted to be in the band but I think that
after two and a half years of hard work and loyalty Paul didn’t show me much
respect doing it that way. Having said that it I didn’t let it affect my
relationship with him and although I didn’t see him as much we still spoke on
the phone and it was always big hugs and lots of laughs when we did bump into
each other.
At the end of the day it’s always better to
remember the good times rather than the bad and there were far more of the
former. Paul took a chance on an 18 year old kid and thanks to him I got to
live every musicians dream. He taught me so much and I’ll always love and
respect him for everything he did for me and for all the laughs and great
memories.
By January 1989, you
left Samson. Did you form a new band in the aftermath?
As I’ve already explained I was ready to go
with a new band immediately and this became ‘First Strike’. Whilst I was in
Newcastle over the Christmas holiday I saw a band in a local pub who had this
amazing drummer who’s name was Dave Anderson, there was only about five people
watching them but this guy was playing like he was headlining Wembley stadium.
I approached him after the gig and asked him if he wanted to move to London and
join my new band and he jumped at the chance. The line-up was completed by another
big buddy of mine from Newcastle Dee Dowling who played guitar, keyboards and
had a brilliant voice so once everyone had relocated to London we started
rehearsing and were ready to start playing gigs in a few months. We recorded a
three track demo which was produced by Lea Hart from Fastway and made a video
for the song Nasty which got us loads
of attention after it was played on ‘The Power Hour’ on UK national television.
We toured like crazy and did some brilliant
support slots with Uriah Heep, Dare, Slaughter, Giant, Shy and Saraya just to
name a few and started to headline our own shows at The Marquee. We had a
brilliant manager in a very young Dave Shack (who is now part of the Iron
Maiden management team) and after signing a production deal we recorded a
further three songs at Jam Studios in North London. Girls of the world was chosen for the next video and again had a
brilliant reception after being aired on The Power Hour, this time with an
interview with myself and Billy. The three new songs were used on a compilation
album released initially in Japan called All
Stars which featured loads of bands from NWOBHM including Samson.
The band carried on touring and by the end of 1990
had recorded enough material for an album and were being courted by every
record company in London. Unfortunately timing is everything and by that time
Kurt Cobain and the grunge sound suddenly made bands like First Strike obsolete
overnight.
After First Strike I was to be honest burnt out
both physically and mentally so I went home to Newcastle for a year to recharge
my batteries. On returning to London I did a lot of studio session work singing
backing vocals on many albums and spent a lot of time writing songs and working
on studio projects. Around the mid-nineties I started playing around London
with a few cover bands and a couple of years after that I met a brilliant
guitarist called Ash Limer. We started writing songs and after a few months
were offered a record deal by an American label called Domo Records. We formed
a band called ‘Seven Days’ and recorded two singles Ride and Double A Side
which were mixed in Sante Fe, New Mexico by Kip Winger.
Any “definitive word”
about your time in Samson? Was it commercially successful? I think 1988 is just a wonderful AOR album and
you delivered the best as singer for that particular era in the Samson history.
Truly!
Once again, thank you for that it’s really
appreciated. My time in Samson obviously isn’t going to be remembered as the
golden time in the bands history or the most commercially successful but in
hindsight I think it was a band that had tried to move with the times and Paul
should get a lot of credit for that. I’ve spent a lot of time recently
listening to all the recordings from this period including a lot of live
recordings and as I’ve said before it was powerful but melodic with some
outstanding songs that should have had a chance with a wider audience. I loved
my time in Samson and Empire and I’m extremely proud that I was Paul’s singer
for two and a half years, he was a brilliant guitarist and one of the funniest
guys I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing.
A final message for
the Samson fans out there...
I’d just like to say a huge thank you to
everyone who still keeps the faith and the memory alive. Samson has a huge back
catalogue of quality material and it’s fantastic that everything is being
reissued so that hopefully it will get to a new audience as well as the fans
that have always been there.
I’m planning to put together a solo album next
year using material I’ve written across the years and hopefully including a
couple of songs I co-wrote with Paul as well as some new tracks.
So for the all the fans out there, thank you
and watch this space…
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